In 2004 Mazda released the limited edition Mazdaspeed Miata MX-5 turbo.
I got my MSM in july 2007 after selling my 91 Honda NSX.
This blog is where I'll keep track of all my modifications, trackdays and other car related activities.

2012-01-22

Laminova oil cooler for Rotrex ? Nah...

I have been trying to figure out where to put my conventional 10x30x5 cm Setrab oil-cooler for the Rotrex unit and avoid having to stack 3 coolers (oil, IC, coolant) in the grille opening.
Both my fog-light openings in my bumper  are already occupied for the engine oil-cooler and CAI.

I have heard of water to air intercoolers but did not know there were water to oil coolers available for automotive use before reading about laminova coolers from www.laminova.se :



This looked like a major win: No airflow needed, the amount of oil from rotrex will not tax water cooling much, clean install etc.
After ditching AC I have enough space ato add a ~ 20 cm long C43 Laminova unit in the hose going from rad to engine block. Problem solved ?

Not.
The Rotrex inlet oil temperature should be max 80 C which is quite cold when dealing with petrol engines where optimal coolant/oil temp are around 90-100 C.  My oil and coolant temps can reach as high as 120/105 C on track days.
According to testing done by Flyin Miata the temperature drop for a radiator in a Miata is only around 5 C when inlet coolant temp is 105 C  -->  http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/rads.php


radiatorAmbient tempRad inletRad outletImprovement over stockTemperature dropTime to tempOutlet temp compared to ambient
stock 1990-9735º105º100º -+65º
Brand X aluminum race radiator38º105º101º+1º15:44+63º
FM crossflow43º102º98º-2º17:09+55º
dual pass44º102º97º-3º11:55+53º



That means a laminova cooler would  act as a heater instead of cooler if used with the Rotrex.

But what about using it as regular oil-cooler for the engine and use my current engine cooler for the Rotrex ?
Here are some graphs from laminova.se for the C43 with 120 c oil inlet temp and 85 c coolant temp:
 I have not found any coolant or oil flow numbers for the Miata but this  site says an oil pump typically delivers between 8-12 gpm or 30-40 litres/min
As for coolant flow I don't have a clue.  I found an example here where a 20 gpm water pump actually delivers 0 gpm at 6psi pressure drop.  Lets just say the miata pump can deliver 160 litres/min to make it near optimal for a laminova cooler with a bypass.
A C43-182 would then cool my 120c oil down to 116  given my coolant inlet temp was 85C.
However my coolant temps are most likely 100+ C  which I'm afraid would make this cooler useless as anything other than an oil heater.




2012-01-19

PPIHC prepped RS200 from Forge Motorsport

How can we not love purpose built hill climb cars ?  Check out this all carbon, 900hp, 2.4l BPD Cosworth RS200 from Forge Motorsport.
In 2012 Pikes Peak is all tarmac from start to finish which means more road racing inspired cars compared to the usual rallycross look optimized for gravel and rougher surfaces.  It's cool that Forge Motorsport choose a  30 year old Group B Rally Car for their attempt instead of a newer platform.  I bet a pimped up Radical would do quite well.


More here.

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2012/01/14/car-spotlight-gt-gt-pike-s-peak-forge-motorsport-rs200.aspx

2011-12-01

New Toyota FT-86 details.

It's sad that several of the latest posts on this blog are reposts of articles from www.motoiq.com,  but they are simply the best automotive performance blog on the internet. Written for car nerds by car nerds.

Their article on the new FT86/BRZ/* is just what I have been looking for. http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/2279/86-under-the-skin-technical-details-on-the-toyotasubaruscion-86gt-86fr-sbrz.aspx

Interesting picture comparing the size with a NC and a couple of gigantic intergalactic spaceships.

There is so much win baked into this car. RWD, boxer engine sound, lots of already available tuning parts from the Impreza, light weight, roomy without being a bus, quality brand and the list goes on.
It's the perfect tuner car that people can afford.  Not like the R35, Supra, 911, Elise etc. which are too much $$$ (at least where I live)
Give it 10 years and this will be a trackday/drift/Autox favorite even here in Norway.

2011-11-21

AEM Dyno-shaft

I found an article on motoiq.com about a new AEM product called a dyno-shaft.
Its basically a slip yoke with some strain gauge magic and a controller that will replace the one going out of your transmission coupled to the drive shaft.  It will measure torque going to the differential but calculates horse power based on RPM input.
This will be a more accurate and hassel free measurement than accelerometer-based systems such as Dynolicious or G-tech which needs exact vehicle weight and mounting/calibration to give meaningful numbers.
Currently you need a AEM datalogger or EMS to read the AEM-net only data stream and there does not seem to be a yoke/controller that fits on the Mazda transmission.
I like the idea of having tq readings in a datalog along with other parameters like injector duty, IAT etc.
Pricey at $1100 + logger or a compatible EMS.



More info here:

http://www.aemelectronics.com/dyno-shaft-on-vehicle-dyno-73/dyno-shaft-on-vehicle-dyno-sportsman-series-74/

2011-11-16

Inboard video of turboed NSX at Buttonwillow.

If found this video on www.motoiq.com.



Since I used to own a NSX its great to see this affordable supercar being used in TimeAttack events. It looks extremely fast and smooth. That aero package must do wonders since they are able to put 750 whp down to the ground out of corners without drama or 4x4.



Read more details about the car here:
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1451/categoryid/18/time-attack-terror-fxmds-record-setting-acura-nsx.aspx


2011-11-08

Toyota MR-S Electric power steering pump conversion

To make space for the Rotrex I needed to ditch the PS pump.  I tried driving the car without PS by just looping the lines but didn't like it at all. 225 R888 and agressive wheel alignment is too much drama without the aid of PS and simply ruined the driving experience both on the road and track. I'm sure it would be a little better by doing a proper depowering but PS is needed imho.
The solution for my misery is electric power steering pump, or a Electro-Hydraulic Power Steering, since we are still pumping fluid into the hydraulic steering rack.

I did some research on the interwebs and found the MR2 pump to be popular in the EV community.
The 3rd-gen MR-S pump is especially desirable as it got the reservoir, control unit and pump in one compact unit complete with rubber mounts.

You need to register to see pics.  In case the pics or info disappears I'll host them on my Picasa account as well:
My biggest challenge was to make the pump fit in the engine compartment.  And I failed.  There was simply not enough space available with AC, PS and the reserved space for the Rotrex so I relocated it to the trunk.

I was afraid the long lines would affect flow/pressure but it worked out fine.  I reused the stock trans cooler.
  For the pressure line I initially wanted to use AN braided lines and fittings but read something about the pump pressure spikes of 1000psi.
I ended up using a super heavy duty hydraulic 10mm ID hose from the local Tess with steel 10x10 banjo bolts and hydraulic fittings good for 5K psi.  Would AN work ? Probably, but this was actually cheaper and the SS lines had a rubber lining which meant better protection for other parts.  Routing the lines and wires took ages. For return line I used plain rubber fuel line hose.

Wiring up the pump was easy with the available schematics.  I used a 40 amp relay kit from Summit meant for fuel pumps complete with relay and a circuit breaker. 
I also run a wire from the VSS signal of the ECU to the VSS terminal on the controller.
This seems to work very well.  I can hear the pump goes idle when the car goes past ~ 10km/t and the steering PS input is a lot less at speed.
The pump has internal sensors that detects steering input via pressure so there is no need for steering rack sensors as used on the older MR2 mk 1/2.  It will also work without VSS signal but will user a longer time to idle down when you stop and goes into speed.  

If I should do it again I would have used thicker lines as I can feel some hesitation in extreme steering action on autox events. The diameter I used are the same as stock MR-S but those lines are probably less than 50cm.  The whole kit ended up costing quite a lot as I needed to buy a new reservoar and also bought the plugs and pigtails new from Toyota. A Opel guy told me that newer Open Corsa or similar has a neat little EHPS pump that shuld fit even better.

I friend of mine managed to mount the pump on his 400whp NBFL down low in front/under the generator with some complicated bracketeering. Check out his thread on mt.net for details:  http://www.miataturbo.net/showpost.php?p=714835&postcount=132



Synchronic 50mm V-band wastegate

I just got my wastegate from Synapse Engineering.


Huh, a waste gate for å Rotrex compressor install you say ? Yes. The WG doesn't care if its wasting cold or hot air. Since I'm only tampering with the cold side of the engine the WG will only see clean compressed air instead of 500C exhaust gases.
The idea of controlling Rotrex boost by WG has been thoroughly tested by Jaydee and his insane twin Rotrex'ed Ariel : http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=86410  He is now flossing with 600 whp running twin C38-91 in series and uses a WG for implementing traction control and fighting surge at lower RPM.

The unit is a Synchronic 50mm V-band WG made by Synapse Engineering.  Its based on a pneumatic actuator for super fast control and infinite adjust-ability instead of the traditional diaphragm as used on most other brands.


50 mm is probably overkill but they include an extra 44mm valve seat and spring for even more tuning options. I will try to mount it pre IC if there is room as I don't see the point in cooling intake charge that will be bleed off later heating up the IC unnecessary. The included flanges are all SS so I need to either make one in alu or hope that the 50mm Tial BOV flange is compatible.  Either way the intake piping cold side will need to be alu to both have flanges for WG and the diverter valve.

2011-10-04

Rotrex kit

I have had this lying around since february.  I was convinced that it would be on the car in april but other things took more time than expected.

The "kit" consists of the C38-61 Rotrex unit, magnetic filter, oil, oil-reservoar,  oil cooler and hoses.
Everything is shipped directly from Rotrex in Denmark but I bought it from  http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk in Scotland as they gave me the best offer. I also had a long chat with one of the guys working there and got a lot of useful information on mounting and tuning.

To get this on the car I need to:
- Fabricate a bracket
- Mount my PWR intercooler + hotside piping
- Purchase and mount a Synchronic WG (fastest acting) on the piping for boost control
- Mount my Synchronic BOV for bypass
- Find a place for Rotrex oilcooler and reservoar.

The bracket will be the biggest challenge.  I have done som preliminary cad work but more on that later.

Some pics.
Contents of big box.


Rotrex compressor unit.  It comes with a 8-rib pulley but I'll use it with a 6-rib ATI-pulley. Hope that works without belt slip.








2011-10-03

Raceland header

I did a somewhat lengthy post some months ago about the basic principles on how a performance header works. Based on the info and numbers gathered in that article I started looking for different alternatives that will fit my needs:

- 2" primaries or as close as possible
- 2.5"-3" out of the collector
- At least one O2 bung
- Cheap..

The RB header would be a safe bet and a quality product.
The ultra expensive fuji racing header or Maxim works would also be nice but very expensive.
Also all these headers have kind of small diameter pipes and only 2"-2.25" end pipe diameter.

As far as I can tell there are no Miata headers out there that has 2" primaries other than going custom or have stahlheaders.com make me one of their Miata 4-1 headers with 2" primaries and a 2.5 or 3" collector. Either way expensive. I might consider it later.

I have read some reviews on m.net about the (once) $99 Racland header. SS materials, 4-2-1 design and they even managed to pair the correct runners for the primay collectors :).
I got mine for $139 of eBoy.

So lets take a look at this "quality" product.
Some measurements, ( NB version):


Flange and dump od 60mm / 2.3"
Secondary od 48 mm  1 5/6"
Primary od 42 mm. 1 5/8"
Primary length 450 mm  17.7"
Secondary lenght 410mm 16.15"
Dp 280 mm  11"

Shiny stuff. Bling is enabled.
 

The flange is thick and has a machined even finish. Bolt holes are a bit larger than OEM (compared to a 99 Euro-spec header).  Ports are rough and uneven.  Looks like they just jammed a oversized dremel down there.


Some numbers on a sticker



The welds and craftmanship looks OK at first glance. Nice TIG welds and "stacks of dimes"


..but if you look a bit closer you can see some strange stuff going on where the pipes are welded together:


They use slip joint instead of butted welds on the runners.


Not good:


Collectors look ok from the outside:


But not so good from the inside. Lots of adges making restrictions and turbulence.


The same goes for the runners as seen from the flange:


The fitment down the transmission tunnel was cramped and needed som BFH action to fit without rubbing:



Chrome won't get you home:


Summary:  You get what you pay for.

2011-10-02

Nürburgring trip 2011

Mid August I had some glorious days of car heaven at the famous Nürburgring.
This is my 4th. pilgrimage to this glorious, scary, insane, dangerous, fantastic and intimidating race track built in 1927.  21 km,  154 bends, 300 m of elevation.  One lap here is like full trackday at our local track (Rudskogen).
I took exactly 3 pics of exactly nothing on the trip so this post will be text only until someone else from the trip publishes some pictures.

We choose the same date as previous years to be able to attend the Oldtimer GP on friday to sunday.
My setup for the day when heading south was de-turbolized MSM, stock suspension, 225 ToyoR8's on 9x15 6UL rims. I had to rip off the AFCO's due to a faulty damper two weeks earlier. Lame setup considering all the parts I have lying around in the shed but it worked very well both on track and 1000km of Autobahn trough Germany and Denmark. AC not working was a problem as well as a lot of road noise from the R888's.
This year I wasn't traveling with the regular pack of diesels as in 2007, 08 and 09 but a bunch of hooners from the "Flat City" crew consisting of a good mix of Mazda, BMW, Toyota and Nissan owners. As expected most of the project cars (Modified 300+ hp RX7, MX5, E28 etc. ) had either broke down or didn't get finished in time. That resulted in in people bringing their daily drivers or just hiking with other cars.

To cut the driving distance to the minimum we opted to take the ferry from Oslo to Kiel. It started out as usual with lots of food and beer. Too much for the one who got assigned a special cabin by the guards that night.
We arrived at Kiel around 10-11 and headed directly towards Adenau.  The weather was awful with all sorts of rain hammering down from the skies.  I had to limit my speed to under 80 km/t on the autobahn several times to avoid skidding of the road with the R888. There were also a lot of "Stau" around Köln and Hamburg which meant a lot of 1.gear snailing while listening to german radio (Which is like being sendt back to the 80s).
One of the cars had a turbo failure and had to be swapped out for a rental for the rest of the trip.
The 12 bed appartment was pimp and perfect with the exception of no WiFi. Lots of parking space and located close to some kind of horse training facility with Horses running around the house farting.
We ended the night with several beers outside Blaue Ecke in Adenau. Nice place to sit and watch exotic and classic cars driving around the small town during the Oldtimer weekend.

The following days was a mix of watching the Oldtimer events at the GP-track, chasing laptimes at the Nordschleife, eating Pizza at Picasso in Adenau and drinking Bitburger. Nice combo indeed though I have had enough Pizza and old farts driving even older cars for a while (Oldtimer GP).

As usual "Tourist fahrten" was crazy.  Grüne Hölle was the usual mix of exotic cars, motorcycles and dedicated track toys crammed into the limited parking area. They seriously need to expand the paring area and move the track exit to the other end of the parking. I also noticed the increasing amount of track rentals from rentforring, rentaracecar etc.  Usually Suzuki Swift or Renault Clio but also the new Corrado and some non V8 M3's.  I have never considered renting a car instead of using my own.  I might consider it in the future as rumors say they will start renting out NC's complete with cage and stuff. That would be the perfect ring toy.

I did 16 laps this time.  Most of them at full throttle trying to get a sub 9 minute lap.
It started out slow with a wet track and 10-11 minute laps.  Actually this was very useful for refreshing the optimal line and breaking points. You have to be very smooth trough the corners with the R888 in the rain to avoid having the back end stepping out.

Pretty soon there was a fierce competition among the group for the fastet BTG lap time. The rules were... non existent . Horsepower, weight, suspension, tires or driver was irrelevant. The logged lap time with GPS or timed from a movie was all that mattered.  I was way down on power compared to the other guys but had very good tires and brake setup. With about 55 laps of experience from previous trips I was leading this totally irrelevant competition without no sort of trophy from the start with a solid 09.00,5 already on Saturday when the track had dried up.  I had little traffic on this lap but I knew I could go faster as there was a part at S13 that were rerouted trough a low speed narrow part due to activities on the GP-track easily adding 3-4 seconds to the time. I had pretty much reached my goal of a sub 9 min lap with the 100 whp MX.  Thats a massive 50 seconds better than what I managed with the RatX5.

But on monday one of the guys who brought his backup all beaten up and ratty 320 with a transplanted 2.3l(?) straight six 170 hp, flat city style intake tuned china ling long ding dong performance tire shod fake bbs rs wheel'ed green stuff yellow koni fitted BMW decided that he could put a skilled racing driver behind the wheel eating a two handed bratwürst AND making a f***** Youtube documentary while setting a BTG lap time of 08.53.  Not cool.
What to do ? While the BMW owner was celebrating "his" win with expensive champagne and celebrity friends at Grüne Hölle I once again strapped on my HANS and set out for a hot lap in "the Machine".
This time I got a really clean lap and logged nearly 160 kmt gps trough both Flügplatz and Schwedenkreuz.
I nailed both the start of the long climb at Bergwerk and the high speed left at klostertahl taking valuable seconds. I managed a 8.47,06 and was more than happy. Good times.
I was once again on the bragging rights throne but another guy came very close with a 08.48 with his latest gen pimped BMW 330 diesel.

After some more bitburgers, pax laps, sightseeing and Pizza we went home. Me and a fellow MSM owner drove all the way to Hirtshals in denmark and took the ferry over to Larvik instead of wasting 1 day via Kiel.

It was a wonderful trip but there are a couple of things I will do different the next time:
- No more Oslo - Kiel ferry.  Thats two days wasted compared to driving all the way from Oslo-Larvik-Hirtshals-Adenau in one (long) day. Start in Oslo 0530, take the first BitBurger in Adenau 2130.
- Pick dates with more Tourist fahrten. OldtimersGP is all played out and there is not much to do in the Eifel district when the track is closed. September is supposed to be good both for opening times and nice weather.
- Maybe attend a trackday at the ring. Costly but you get to drive the whole track including the straight with fewer cars, no motorcyles = a much safer way to chase laptimes.
- Check the possibility of having the cars transported on a 8-car trailer service. The cost of driving down with a gas gurgling turbo/kompressor modified car is around 3-5K including the ferry. That is 30-40K to the driver + plane tickets instead of a 16 hour driving x 2  at 6K rpm in a sweaty noisy MSM.

2011-09-14

Video: INVASION BY STEPHEN BROOKS

Nice video as usual from Stephen Brooks
Makes even drifting look cool.  The guy on the podium is Norwegian drifter Fredric Aasbø.


INVASION - Maxxis Tyres British Drift Championship Round 5 from Stephen Brooks on Vimeo.

2011-08-29

Great article on speedhunters.com on the increasingly complex rules and regulations in motorsport.

Given my modest interest in F1 I have not ben able to keep up with the regulations that seems to change and get more complex for each season.
As I understand they now have KERS, DRS and shitty tires to make overtaking easier.  What a bunch of crap. I even read in a magazine that they have been discussing spraying some parts of the track with water just to make it interesting.
Motorsport should be load, spectacular and unsafe.  F1 should be the motorsport with the least amount of restricting rules other than safety and the definition of a "car".

What I DO like about F1 is the new engine regulations that will come i 2012-13 with turbocharged engines.  I'm very interested to se how they implement turbocharging in F1 now compared to how they did it in the 80's.  What size turbo(s), fuel, IC, plenum, antilag (will they use KERS as antilag ?) etc.
And what will restrict power ? boost pressure or restrictor ? Well that's a different discussion.

Here is the article:

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2011/08/27/discussion-gt-gt-are-rules-amp-regs-destroying-motorsport-pt-1.aspx

2011-08-21

Cam cover breather modification.

I did some modifications to the cam cover breather channeling on the hot side of the cover based on some theories from mt.net and ms.net.  I bored out the "slurpee" channel between the inner and outher chambers with a 10mm drill bit as shown on the pictures for better flow. The rest of the breather setup is stock complete with the MSM catch can and oil return on the cold side of the block except I vent the pipe that used to go to the pre turbo intake pipe to atmo.  I was expecting some oil mess but I havent seen a single drop of oil after the modification.  I will do one last modification by connecting the catch can to the exhaust like the Yanks do on the V8's. This will create a lot of vacume if done right but hopefully not enough to suck oil back up the oil return. Time will show.

Some pics.
Stock valve cover. The covers over the breather channels need to be removed with x screws and carefully pryed of without bending them as they are glued into place with silicone.



The path of flow is into the middle chamber trough the box looking thing and out to the other chanbers.


Here is the hot side chamber with the "slurpee" hole between them


This hole will be submerged in oil and act as a vapor lock for incoming air trough the intake.  The hole is about 5 mm. and goes from the top of the inner chamber to the bottom of the outer chamber.
The cover has a little sump to make the vapor lock work:


For some reason I did not take any pics of the modified hole but just picture ramming a 10mm drill trough the orginal.

I did not touch the cold side chamber as the vapor path is very free flowing stock. Only some walls to make the vapor shed some oil before going trough the one way valve into the IM.




As a side note I have only tested this on an N/A engine since my Rotrex has not been put to work yet. I'm confident that enlarging the hole to the hot side chamber is necessary to vent pressure under WOT. Especially when boosted.

2011-08-07

MSM project status August 2011

This blog has been lacking MSM project updates the last 6 months due to laziness.  I have a huge backlog of very cool stuff I need to write about but I might as well mention some of the stuff that has been going on before I use another 6 months getting up2date.


  • I just read trough my blogpost and I might not have mentioned that I sold off my GT3071 turbo setup in favor of a Rotrex C38-61 compressor which I plan to overspin by 10% and control boost on the intake side by a regual boostcontroller and WG. Pretty big decision considering all the work i did on the turbo setup. I hope to get a functioning prototype bracket machined in september and maybe some initial testing before the snow arrives.
  • I have modified the oilseparator passages in my camcover with some heavy dremel action with great success. Not a drop of oil exiting the stock MSM catch can other than back to the drain pipe.
  • I bought a cheap RaceLand N/A header based on info I learned writing this post  . Typical china quality but at least they got a decent sized pipe diameter on the primary/secondary
  • I regret buying a Simons NB single tip exhaust system since the NB version has some major restrictions (not straight trough) compared to the NA version I used on my first NA.  I will modify this one with Magnaflow silencers, slash cut and V-band CAT/Racepipe.
  • I have ditched my PS pump in favour of a Toyota MR-S electro mecanical pump placed in the trunk too free up space for the Rotrex. The procject took ages and I owe my self and the Internet a lengthy article on how it is done..
  • I have fitted at 65mm Edelbrock Mustang throttle body to my 2001 Square Top manifold. 2" all the way to the IM runners !
  • I have installed the FM Big Spark kit. 4 LS3 Coils working fully sequential with the Adaptronic. I predict no spark blowout, misfire or other ignition related problems during boost in my nearest future.
  • I have adapted the 11.75" Wilwood MINI kit as described by bbundy on mt.net. Biggest challange was to find someone to fabricate the brake disc alu hubcentric spacers and caliper spacers in Alu. Brakes are now fantastic on track.  No change on the street.
  • I love the new Miata Roadster shortshifter with an angeled extender. It really does make the 6-speed usable.
  • I have mounted my Sparco sprint seat with custom brackets directly to the floor, 2 extra eyebolts for lap belts on the 6 point harness, Bell helmet and Scroth HANS. As usual this took like 10 times longer than expected. I'm pretty sure I had to trial fit the seat about 50 times before everything was optimal.
  • I measured 100rwhp on the temporary N/A setup measured with my iPhone... 
  • I ran 1.08 on Vålerbanen!! Thats very fast for my current powerlevel.
  • I have won two AutoX events in NCL cup. (class 2)
  • I attended "Japsetreff 2011" on the brand new racetrack at Rudskogen and ran 1.50 lap in the dry and 2.03 in the rain. I have no idea if that's fast or not.
  • One of my AFCO coilovers leaks oil and needs a rebuild.  They are for sale.. cheap.  I'm currently rocking stock suspension which is awful.
  • I'm leaving for a week of automotive pr0n @ the Nürburgring next thursday. I will be driving the MSM but need to adjust toe and lean out midrange to save some gas $ ( 2500ish km trip) 

2011-07-20

80's Audi ALS system details

I came over this pic on mt.net of the old Audi S1 E2 Quattro AntiLagSystem.
Lots of compressed air gets recirculated at throttle liftoff into the manifold runners and mixed with lots of fuel to keep spinning the turbo while there is no exhaust driving the turbine from the cylinders.  Kind of like a super sized EGR valve which gets air from the other side of the throttle plate. I wonder why this is not used more in drifting and autox type events. There are lots of laggy and peaky turbo cars out there that would benefit from some form of ALS. And it will get you laid as well..